My friend, Rubo, and I have been have a FB/Yahoo Messenger conversation about love. Well, we were when I was actually on FB. I am taking a hiatus because the FB police are after me–again.
Anyway, she turned me on to a group named The Storys. They are a Welsh band, and I am totally addicted to them. My favorite song is Journey’s End (Show Me Love). I have listened to it well over fifty times in the past week, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the actual number is double that. I bought their self-titled debut album, and the whole thing is excellent. Here is a live version of my favorite song:
Well, Rubo has been on a kick of posting links on FB to their videos. Her most recent one was I Believe in Love. This is the rapidly becoming my second favorite song by The Storys. Since I am a compulsive commenter, I quickly posted something about loving that song, even though I didn’t believe in love.
Well, that ticked her off. She said, “You have cats. Don’t tell me you don’t believe in love.” Then, I realized that I had to explain myself further, and this is what I said.
I believe in love. I fiercely love my friends, and I know that they love me in return. I love my cats beyond reason. My family–love them. So, yes, I believe in love. What I don’t believe in is everlasting romantic love. Now, before you get all indignant on me, hear me out.
I love deeply, passionately, and truly (maybe, even madly, like a certain Alan Rickman movie). However, that love is based on a friendship love. I have only loved two men in my life, and both of them were close friends before we started dating. By that time, I already loved them, so a natural evolution of that love seemed inevitable.
However, I don’t know where the line was drawn between friendship love and romantic love. I jokingly told someone that the line was drawn–in bed! The thing is, I was half-serious. To me, the best recipe for a lasting relationship was to be good friends first. As I have said before, the problem with this is that someone who makes a really good friend may not be such a great partner.
But, as usual, I digress.
I will admit that my views are colored by viewing my parents’ relationship as I grew up. They made each other miserable on a daily basis (and, by extent, my brother and me), it was tiring for all involved. My dad had several special female friends from the church (I always knew which woman had that dubious honor at any given time), and my mother was deeply depressed. They fought quite a bit, and their fights were always the same.
I used to beg my mother to divorce my father. She wouldn’t, though, in a large part because divorce was verboten in the Taiwanese circle. Marriage was forever, damn it, no matter what. Needless to say, my opinion of romance soured from witnessing the vicious cycle my mother and father were locked in.
So, I come by my skepticism honestl. Still, despite all evidence to the contrary, I believed in an everlasting love when I truly fell in love for the first time. Sure, we had very different goals in life, but if we truly loved each other, we would find a decent compromise. Right? Wrong. Everlasting fell well short of eternity.
I was hurt by him, and I carefully wrapped up my heart and put it in storage for years. The second time I fell in love, I was a bit more cautious in revealing myself to him. I still believed in happily ever after, even though I valiantly tried to deny it. I was with him for four years, and I went from being the most important thing in his life to being very important to him to being tiring. My own love for him faded as I realized how weak he was. By the time everything was completely over, I had lost a lot of respect for him.
So. He was the last person I truly loved, and that was in a different lifetime. Back then, I still believed in being with one person for the rest of my life. Well, at least in theory. In reality? Eh. I started to think about how unrealistic it is to expect to be with one person for thirty, forty, or fifty years. I don’t believe humans are monogamous by nature, even though we can, of course choose to be monogamous.
Here’s the thing. I don’t see it. Not for me. Mostly, because I don’t think I have it in me to dedicate myself completely to one person until the end of time. I have a pretty unfettered personality when I actually reveal it. I would chafe at reining that in.
On the flip side, I don’t see someone wanting to be with just me for the rest of his/her life, either. I am not willing to compromise on so many things. I do not play nicely with others, and I don’t share my toys. I can be moody and irrational and very effective in shutting people out.
The thing is, I am making my peace with it. It’s another belief that I have held for most of my life that just doesn’t work for me in my present incantation. I know it sounds defeatist or like I’m afraid of love or something like that. I don’t know what to say to that other than it really isn’t about fear. It’s more…I have let my illusions shatter. Yes, there’s a thread of bitterness in it. I mean, it’s common at my age to have one or two marriages under one’s belt. Who doesn’t have a past littered with broken hearts (given or received)? So, yes, it’s tempting to believe that it’s just the bitter talking.
It isn’t. It’s clarity. For the first time, I have let go of the belief that I will have a lifetime romantic relationship with one person. Yes, there’s a little bit of sadness as I release this belief, but there is also relief. Finally, I can put that particular burden down. I don’t have to feel like a freak because I can’t imagine being with one person for the rest of my life. I can entertain the possibility of having relationships solely situated in the present with little thought of a future.
In some ways, I am striving for the Zen of relationships. Savor what is. Don’t worry about what might be because we will never know. Even if I were to find “the one” (in which I also don’t believe, but that’s another entry completely), there is no guarantee that we will be together for a month, let alone a lifetime. I am not saying I am not going to love or be in relationships. I am just saying that my expectations have shifted from living happily ever after to enjoying each day in the here and now.
I have been learning so much about myself in the last few months. Let’s just add this to the list of surprise discoveries by me about me.
Here is the song that started this introspection: The Storys, I Believe in Love:
I struggle with this every single day as my marriage of 18yrs disintegrates. I do love him, as my friend, as the father of my Kellions, as someone who is an integral part of my history. But I am not in love with him, not in a sexual way, and not in a “let’s stay married forever” sort of way.
The only reason I haven’t left the marriage yet is guilt at what it would do to him and the kids, and that just erodes the parts of that love that could perhaps have been salvaged. I know we’ve talked about this a lot, Minna, but I think that love has so many different potential definitions, in different situations, with different people. It can’t necessarily be quantified, although people try to do so all the time, but it can certainly be qualified.
Any form of real love is valid; there’s no real sense in trying to label it or shove it in a neat little box because it just won’t work.*
*Edited for typos.
Are you really releasing something or are you placing a wall up and becoming resistant to it? I mean if you just don’t open yourself up to things, they can’t hurt you right?
Sometimes I think you have more walls and denial that I do, with fancier explanations and justifications.
I guess that’s what a better education gets you! Hehehehehe
Oh yeah, and love and monogamy are different. I seriously don’t think people are meant to try to stay monogamous, but that’s just me.
The Zen master would say that when you finally let go of needing to find true love… you will find it.
I’m no Zen master, so I’ll just say that appreciating the moment is the most important thing… and the love thing will work itself out!
(But I’ve noticed you still believe in Alan Rickman, even if you don’t believe in love, so there’s that!)
There was an interesting article linked on yahoo a while back. It said that there were people who’d been married ages and when shown a photo of their spouse their brains experienced the same sort of chemical craziness that the “new love” feelings engender in brains.
Of course love exists, and for some it exists with one person for decades. I don’t have the answer as to whether or not only some people are capable of that life-long crazy love feeling for their spouse or if it’s something that anyone can have if they find the right person.
After 10+ years I look at my hubby and think he is more handsome & sexier than ever. He weighs the same, more grey hair, so it’s nothing on the outside, it’s just love.
Maybe someday science will figure out the love thing, whether it’s all b.s., chemicals and brains and darwin. But maybe not. Until then it’s just zillions of us trying to figure out something that is too complicated for words and is different for everyone. If 2 people in the same relationship have two totally different takes on the same relationship, how in the hell can it be something that everyone can have with someone provided it’s that just-right person, and live happily ever after?
Most of what makes things work with my nearly-perfect husband is the fact that I’ve grown & matured. You have changed a lot since the last long-term relationship — you could find that the next one blows away all of your preconceived notions about love and yourself.
Besides, I think that if Alan Rickman came to you tomorrow and said he’d been reading your blog, you sound like someone he’d be interested in spending some time with, well, you’d probably decide that you might be up to the challenge of love.
And I agree with Whabs that you certainly have perfected the art of convincing yourself (and attempting to convince others) that you don’t believe in romantic love, thereby giving yourself the perfect excuse for not trying to have a real relationship, or throwing in the towel if you try and it gets rocky, etc etc… We are all experts are deluding ourselves.
First of all, I was crazy tired when I wrote this entry, so I apologize that it was less than coherent. OK. On to the dialogue!
Kel, I wish I had talked to you before I had written this entry because you nailed it in a much more concise manner. I would do better to just experience rather than to endlessly try to define love or shove it in a box. After all, I am all about ignoring the box.
whabs, and a background in psych! That helps when one wants to delude oneself. It’s entirely possible that I’m rationalizing and deluding myself because I wouldn’t know if I were, necessarily. However, I am not saying I don’t believe in romantic love that can last. I am just not so invested in saying whether or not it’s a lifetime thing.
Alex, live in the moment. Yes, you summed it up quite nicely. I kinda have to believe in Alan Rickman as he’s obviously real.
SMR, as I stated earlier, I do believe in romantic love. I just don’t find it a priority to seek out a lifetime love. In addition, I view it a bit differently than you do in that I don’t see it as necessarily a laudatory thing to plug away endlessly at a relationship that isn’t working. I have done that several times, and I have ended up worse for the effort.
I will quote the great Kenny Rogers, “You got to know when to hold ’em and know when to fold ’em.”
Am I deluding myself? Probably to a certain extent. However, I don’t think it’s more self-realization than it is self-delusion.
As for Alan Rickman: If he were to say that to me, I would most certainly date him and have sex with him (as many times as he could handle), but I have no illusions that I have any idea how a relationship with him would be because I don’t really know him.
Again, I stress that my views of eternal love are for me alone because of my experiences, my beliefs, and my priorities. I am open to changing my mind, of course. but that is where I currently stand.
Good Lord, speaking of writing while tired…remind me to proofread better! Apologies for the myriad of typos up there…
Anyhow, just wanted to add that I downloaded the album from The Storys and plan to listen to it today. =) I loved the first two songs you offered, so I wanted to hear more.
I bet if you ask REALLY nice, Minna will pull a snee and make a sneaky Ninja Edit!
Kel, per whabs suggestion, I cleaned up your post. Besides, your errors were all typos–my incoherence was something much deeper. I’m glad that you liked the Storys and that I can now pass them on.
whabs, that sounds just like Snee.
I can do better than ask nicely. I can send her the promised brown sugar-bourbon cake some time soon. I am hoping to do some baking next weekend!
My typos get worse if the stenosis flares, and it definitely was flaring all day yesterday! However, I am normally much better at going back and fixing them. That was just a general “duh” moment. =)
Kel, brown sugar-bourbon cake?????? Name what you want, and it’s yours!
Learning when to throw in the towel on a no-hoper relationship comes with age & experience for some, for others it never comes.
After I divorced my 1st husband I was determined that I would not “give up” on another relationship again (though that marriage definately was not one that should have been salvaged, unless you believe one should stay together for the child). My next long relationship was 7 years of hell, as I was sure that if we could make it one year we could make it two then if we could make it two years we could make it 3, etc etc etc. After that was over I had no problem whatsoever with being brutal with the guys I dated — “there is no way this will ever go anywhere” was used a couple of times, the other times it was just “that was nice, I’ll call you.”
THe thing is, there are many relationships that are worth working through the hard stuff, but fear &/or lack of commitment mean that one or both walk away. How do you know if it’s fixable? Is it big stuff or little stuff and is it little stuff that will eventually drive you mad and become a deal-breaker?
I, personally, through years of experience with several long-term relationships and plenty of short-terms as well, think that if a relationship is A LOT of work then it’s not the right relationship. People can talk all they want about relationships being “work” but there’s a big difference between a lot of work all of the time and a lot of work cumulatively spread out over decades.
Romantic love? Well, I love my husband (and my kids & my family & my friends), but I would not call it romantic love. It’s just love. Deep love. We still lust after each other, still respect & admire & like one another. I still get mushy over him sometimes. But calling it “romantic love?” No. It’s just good love that is sometimes tested in small ways, and I can live with that.
SMR, I think you and I are closer to agreement than either of us might think. I have a history of trying to fix unworkable relationships, which certainly is one reason I am chary of trying another. Again, it’s something inside of me. I do think that if a relationship overall causes more pain than joy that it’s time to end it. This is applicable to all relationships and not just to partner-love. Yes, that’s an awkward phrase, but I don’t know quite how else to put it. You have decided it’s worth it to give it a go with your current hubby. I have decided that for now, it’s not a priority.
I’ve thought about this post on and off for nearly a week. And for me it goes back to words, what do they mean? What is love? (Okay, now the love song montage from Moulin Rouge is going through my head. But that’s neither here nor there.)
Is it a feeling? Well, feelings change. When I’m angry at my children, I don’t feel very loving toward them, but I still love them.
When I was re framing the beliefs I took out of the church of my upbringing, I clung to “Love thy neighbor as thyself” because it taught me that I had to love myself before I could love my neighbor.
But what did love mean?
M. Scott Peck (whose book “People of the Lie” scared me into therapy) came up with a definition of love as this: “The will to extend one’s self for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth.” Even if you leave out the word “spiritual” it still has much validity. This makes love a choice, a choice for life and growth. If a relationship is not promoting life and growth, then can it truly be love?
Romantic love, as named by more contemporary pop-psych writers (what I sometimes call “new love”) can’t last.
There are emotional changes caused by romantic Love. Romantic love is full of “rapture, transport, transcendence and bliss” Ethel Spector Person. Jeanette Winterson writes in The Passion “perhaps all romance is like that, not a contract between equal parties but an explosion of dreams and desires that can find no outlet in everyday life. And while the fireworks last the sky is a different color.”
There are cognitive changes that happen in Romantic Love:
When you fall in love, a perceptual distortion usually takes place and you idealize the other person, assigning him or her more positive attributes than any one person could actually possess says Janis Abrahms Spring, Ph.D. It has been postulated that these distortions serve the evolutionary purpose of bonding partners together for the essential task of child-rearing. Toufesix (1993)
And there are chemical changes in romantic Love. Love is “a natural high” says Anthony Walsh. The experience of intense passion has a biological base in which your body is literally swamped with amphetamine-like chemicals such as dopamine, nor epinephrine and phenyl ethylamine. The effect of theses drugs doesn’t last forever. The body gradually builds a tolerance to them and requires more of them than it can produce to achieve the same euphoric state. Other chemicals follow, endorphins that soothe you and create a sense of security and calm. This second wave of chemicals moves you from heated infatuation to a more intimate and sustaining attachment. But over time, beyond even these chemicals, your relationship will pass through times of disenchantment and insufficiency.
So, do I believe in the feeling of romantic love? Yes but I know it will not last. Do I believe in the calmness of mature love? Yes, but even that will not maintain a relationship through the crap that life can and will threw at you. Do I believe that I can choose to keep working toward what is good for both of us in a relationship, that will help us grow and heal and become what we were meant to be? Hell, yes. It will not always be easy but if my partner, my lover, my husband, and I can work to remain emotionally intimate and at times, breathtakingly honest and open, then yes our relationship can last a lifetime. And I expect there to be an ebb and flow in even that type of love. And if our being together does not promote growth and life but death, then yes, it is time to see if that can be fixed or end it.
Kahlil Gibran wrote of marriage in “The Prophet” this way:
You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other’s cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other’s keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together, yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other’s shadow.
This was one of the readings at our wedding eleven years ago and I still feel its truth for me today.
Crystal, I love Moulin Rouge, and not only because I think Ewan McGregor is hawt.
You have given me much to think about in your thoughtful comment.
First, I actual think infatuation is a better word for romantic love. It’s hard for me to be concrete on this because I haven’t experienced this. However, all the giddiness and endorphine rush that happens in the beginning is mostly based on projections and what people want to see in each other.
Second, I agree that it’s a choice, to a certain extent, to decide to love one person over one’s lifetime. There will definitely be ebbs and flows over the course of any relationship, certainly. I guess I differ in that I don’t believe it’s the only way to have that spiritual growth. I have a best friend who is my soul mate. She has helped me grow more than any other person I know.
I also don’t believe it’s in our natures to be monogamous. Again, it’s a choice one can make, certainly, but it’s not one I choose to make. I am not making this choice from a position of weakness, but from a position of strength. It’s not about denial or rationalization or anything of the sort. It’s about me knowing myself and what I want and don’t want.
I am not ruling out the possibility that I may have a primary partner one day. I highly doubt that I will ever be strictly monogamous. I know I can love more than one person at a time. I don’t think it’s a bad thing.
Third, that is a beautiful poem, and you and your husband are truly blessed to have found each other and to have a marriage that helps you both grow. I wish the both of you continued growth and closeness over the years.
I agree with you on Ewan McGregor!
And don’t think that I am arguing that a life long relationship is the only way to have spiritual growth. There are as many roads to spiritual growth, enlightenment, wholeness, whatever term you choose, as there are feet to walk down those roads.
I would never presume to tell anyone how to live their life. Your choices are yours and the greatest way I can honor your journey is to accept that you will choose what is best for you where you are today, even if it changes tomorrow.
But for me, I would argue monogamy is my nature. I can count the number of lovers I have had on my fingers. I have had three long term relationships that lasted over 4 years. And I’ve never sexually been involved with two men at a time, even coming off one relationship and starting another. Though I must say, one of my flings was with a married man who pursued me in college. I like sex, but for me sex is very tied to the heart. If my heart is not involved, I feel besmirched.
So we have made different choices. And while there seem to be many ways we resonate alike, this is one of those where we are truly different people.
And believe me, different is GOOD!
Crystal, I have to apologize to you. I have had a really raw week in which I have felt constantly judged for the choices I have made and for my beliefs. I took out my frustrations and hurt on you, which wasn’t fair of me.
Your initial comment (and your follow-up comment) was thoughtful, eloquent, and well-reasoned. I am sorry for jumping on you.